Stampede Road - after the Feb trip

[akdsmer]

Concerned mushers called the park service about us. The rangers met us on the other side of the Teklanika coming home. The ranger we spoke with was honest, friendly and was simply concerned on what we did and where. He expected to see us "highmarking" and driving all over the place. He was suprised to see we simply followed the trail. Later when we spoke with him on the way back he said that he didn't even see where we stopped and camped (directly on the trail) and when he saw the zuki tracks go almost to the bus, he thought we lied to him about how far we made it and where we camped. Since the park rangers rode their sled right through our campsite in both directions and didnt' see any evidence to that, I say we did good and lived up to tread lightly.

Pictures and the story to come later. Broken trailer, broken ignition coil, massive overflow and we still all drove out!

[AlaskaXJ]

Hmmm. Did he give any insight as to what we can do and not do? Stay on the trail and all is well?

[naturalbornmudder]

Concerned mushers called the park service about us. The rangers met us on the other side of the Teklanika coming home. The ranger we spoke with was honest, friendly and was simply concerned on what we did and where. He expected to see us "highmarking" and driving all over the place. He was suprised to see we simply followed the trail. Later when we spoke with him on the way back he said that he didn't even see where we stopped and camped (directly on the trail) and when he saw the zuki tracks go almost to the bus, he thought we lied to him about how far we made it and where we camped. Since the park rangers rode their sled right through our campsite in both directions and didnt' see any evidence to that, I say we did good and lived up to tread lightly

Bravo to the AO crew! This is the kind of impression that we aim to leave, and by doing so, get the good word out.

[Advent]

Calling out a plane in that weather seems a bit over the top.

Actually it was gorgeous. Not a cloud in the sky the whole day Sunday.

Hmmm. Did he give any insight as to what we can do and not do? Stay on the trail and all is well?

Pretty much. He also explained that the bus is a 'safe point', and that it's a big legal gray area to go past it. While it's legal to stay on the trail, the trail is exceedingly hard to follow, and you'll almost invariably wander off it trying to find it again. Otherwise it's theoretically legal to go to Kantishna.

It would be interesting to go out there with a set of snowshoes and mark off the trail past the bus, though I don't know if driving it would be doable.

[AlaskaXJ]

Ahh. I assumed they headed in on Saturday while it was snowing. That's when we saw the rangers vehicles.

So getting to the bus is perfectly legal as long as you stay on the trail while in park land.

[holeski]

Going all the way to Kantishna is perfectly legal as long as you stay on the trail while in park land. You pass though the part twice. Once in the spot where Dan turned back and then later on. We also cleared a lot of the trail, which he said was fine to do. The Ranger said we did nothing wrong and that after we groomed the trail it was a nice ride for the snowmachines. He also has no say when ever the trail is not inside the park and told us that is technically it’s a road and not a trail. So we have the right of way but ethically we where wrong to be out there. To me if it is a road ethically the mushers should have to register their dogs and sleds. We stayed off the bypasses and keep the trail pretty nice. Most of the people in Healy we spoke to where happy we came up to run the trail and I will continue to go back. We need to start going down there for the sole propose of clearing the trail. Heather and I gave the Ranger some Tread Lightly info with our contact info on it. The Ranger just released that we where smarter then he thought we would be and couldn’t make stuff up or lie to us. The Major of Healy warned me about how they will do that to make you stay out. The only answers we got were "is it illegal or ethically wrong", "there is a lot of gray", "I don’t feel right telling you the truth" and "you guys have done nothing wrong". But they did try and bullsh!t us. One Ranger pretended not to be a Ranger. He was covered up in civilian close. When is radio squelched under he jacket the other Ranger pulled of like it was his radio. See in the mean time the other guy was running our plates but they didn’t want us to know. He also gave Heather some more BS and treated her like she was stupid. The main Ranger even said he recognized Heather from BLM. There is more I could bitch about but I will save it for later. In the end it was a great trip. Although the Ranger played nice we where offended by there actions toured Heather and myself and the Parks Service will receive a letter.

[akdsmer]

Hmmm. Did he give any insight as to what we can do and not do? Stay on the trail and all is well?

Ranger "This is a road, so legally you can be here.....ethically though...."

Ranger "The trail <at the gulley where Dan turned around> is in Park Property. The road is a right of way there, but you can't deviate."

Concerning after the bus- Ranger "The trail is extremely hard to follow, you would likely stray off of the right away and get in trouble." During the summer, the ATVers have a hard time and end up going up and down the river looking for the trail.

He did say is was "possible" to get to Kantishna. He also said between all the user groups, Federal and state groups and different laws and interpretations the law isn't Black or White.

End conclusion: The trail to the bus is not problem. Stay on the trail. Do not deviate from it. After that, you had better be sure that you are on the trail, because the park service will not hesitate to cite you if

Note to all. This trail is used by multiple groups. It is in the best interest of all users to maintain this trail and not to do damage that prevents other user groups from being able to use it as well. I would recommend that those that go do it in smaller numbers, have good traction tires, lockers and winches. We did minimal damage to the trail, but kept spinning to a minimum through the use of the above items. I (and hopefully others in the club will partcipate) will be building a pull-behind groomer for the club to use on trails like this to erase our footprint or at least minimize it. The trail looked real good where we started pulling the trailer without the axle or wheels.

[AlaskaXJ]

Just got off the phone with the ranger you folks spoke with yesterday. Driving to the bus is currently totally legal summer or winter. Stay on the trail, especially where the ravine is on natl park land. Past the bus I was told no, you cannot travel by motorized use summer or winter. He said he is turning it over to his superiors and will be getting in touch with us. He admits telling you differently yesterday. This whole thing is weird. He told me ethicaly I should not disrupt the locals that use that trail for an income. Huh?

[TJVigilante]

I'm sure Ethically is the wrong word to use. It's just the closest general term for saying "don't piss off the locals or you'll get it shut down for everyone but them" kind of thing.

[holeski]

And what about the hundreds of dollars we spend on gas, food and what ever else in the town of Healy every time we come down. If you look at it that way we are the income of the locals.

[akdsmer]

It does matter that until recently, the trail was not used by vehicles so the locals had no issues. We did change that though, so it would be best to work out something so everyone can continue to use it. Keep in mind we still have a right, so it isn't a matter of can we, but how can we do it and minimize our effect on the trail for the other users. It can be done easily as we found out. Now to get the groomer designed, built and put into use.

After how well the trail looked for the most part, we shouldn't get too much grief. Next time the trail can look good all the way back.

[AK20]

Let me know when you guys get down to doing the groomer\drag, I've built a couple for the winter trails and ice roads we've built out to the bombing ranges...Same deal, we had permits to travel wetlands, but couldn't touch the tundra...so I know the feeling, and we drove semis at well over 100K gross.

[holeski]

My maps and GPS have the road marked as a "Jeep Trail" all the way to the mine.

[dman357]

This is the guy that owns the lodge right at the end of the Stampede road before it turns to "trail". He's the one that was on the snow machine that we talked with and he "urged" us to not tear up the trail.

Now, Here's where our definitions of tear up the trail differ between user groups.
He runs dog sled teams down the trail and out into the park as the only licensed consessionaire. I can see why he would be ticked if the trail was all jacked up. His dogs feet and his equipment would get torn up running on naked ground. The only place that we would "tear up" the trail would be hills and places where the snow cover is bare. I can definately see his point of not wanting us there.

On the other hand.

He chose to make his business running a public trail. The trail is open to all user groups. It is only now that more people are starting to use the area that problems are arising.
AND, he is on dog sleds. He can get off the trail and run where-ever he pleases. We cannot. We HAVE to and SHOULD stay on the trail. We don't have the option of deviating.

http://www.earthsonglodge.com/

What do you guys think?

[holeski]

I just got off the phone with Peter Armington who is the Chief Ranger for Denali. He said we could do what ever we want up to the Sushana River since it doesn’t belong to the park. Other then that inside the park we would be cited under title 36 4.10a.

§ 4.10 Travel on park roads and designated routes.

(a) Operating a motor vehicle is prohibited except on park roads, in parking areas and on routes and areas designated for off-road motor vehicle use.
(b) Routes and areas designated for off-road motor vehicle use shall be promulgated as special regulations. The designation of routes and areas shall comply with §1.5 of this chapter and E.O. 11644 (37 FR 2887). Routes and areas may be designated only in national recreation areas, national seashores, national lakeshores and national preserves.
© The following are prohibited:
(1) Operating a motor vehicle not equipped with pneumatic tires, except that a track-laying motor vehicle or a motor vehicle equipped with a similar traction device may be operated on a route designated for these vehicles by the superintendent.
(2) Operating a motor vehicle in a manner that causes unreasonable damage to the surface of a park road or route.
(3) Operating a motor vehicle on a route or area designated for off-road motor vehicle use, from 1/2 hour after sunset to 1/2 hour before sunrise, without activated headlights and taillights that meet the requirements of State law for operation on a State highway.


Now when I ask if he could send me something in writing he said he could not because he had nothing to support it. He said that the road belongs to the park and we could not go past the Sushana. He agreed that it was a road and that there is nothing written say you can or can not drive back there. So I don’t see how 36 4.10a means jack here. Sounds like more BS if they can’t back it up in writing. I have some papers here that say the road is part of the Division of Mining, Land & Water which is state, but Pete says unless it becomes a RS2477 he can keep us off of the road inside the park. When I asked about the ATV’s on the tail inside the park in the summer that the Ranger told us sometimes had a hard time finding the trail, he would not comment on that. He also had no comment on the mushers trying to keep us out under they us public land for there income. When I asked him about the legal/ethical speech we got from Michael the Ranger, he said that that was wrong and he would have worded it differently and we where fine up to the Sushana River any time of the year. Again he said we can’t go past that river but he had nothing written to back it up. So we need to either work on making it an RS2477, find paperwork stating the road belongs to another agency or NPS paperwork that says we can go drive in. At this point I think I would risk it with the lack of proper written laws to back up anything they are saying.

[SHoppe715]

So are you saying there's a park ranger running a sideline business in and out of the park through this area and trying to use his clout as a park ranger to keep other users away? ...or did I read wrong?

[holeski]

No Sorry there are others (not the Rangers that I know of) that have business and we where told we should not be on our public lands due to them.

[TJVigilante]

Sounds to me like bureaucracy in action...noone really knows word one about the road, it's not just defined...all laws pertaining to use on that road are up to interpretation. You just have to find out who owns what sections of the road, find out when it stops being a "road", and find out what kind of trail it is from there on out. RS2477 will allow us to drive on it as a trail, if it's a road then it's up to the DOT to enforce any traffic on it, and I'd agree with Eric that if mushers have issue, they should just put it somewhere, because they're operating a non-dot approved/registered vehicle on a DOT registered Highway.

We need to stop speculating though and get down to it and find out what it is. That whole thing about private citizens using it for income is bogus....mushers have tours, snowmachiners have tours, there's a jeep tour in the summer....that's about the only income-related activity they can do out there is tourism....and if we're not making the road impassable for anyone, we're not interfering with their business.

[Advent]

So if I'm a taxi driver I can order other people off the roads?

[TJVigilante]

That about sums it up right there...they have no business trying to tell people to not use a road just because it interferes with someone else's business. That's like me saying "don't apply for that job because I'm applying for it too."

[holeski]

Can everything after the trail run planing be moved to land use?

We to are income to them. Heather and I spent close to $100 there this last time. What got me was the Cheff Pete Armington said we could go anywhere we wanted in the states part of land between the park. Wow, he really cairs about the land huh?

[sevenslats]

I am pleased to see the hard work and research many are putting towards accessing this trail.

[holeski]

Yeah my desk is covered with maps and papers on this trail right now. Letters are being drafted and I'll a bit pi$$ed off at weak people that can not give a straight answer and back it up in writing.

[AlaskaXJ]

http://dnr.alaska.gov/mlw/trails/rs2477/...NUMBER=340

There's your rs2477

we need to write letters to Gov. Palins office explaining we'd like to travel back in there along a rs2477 route and see what she has to say. Pro access.

[dman357]

sweet. There it is. Black and white. It already has RS2477.

[holeski]

Good work I couldn't find it as it was under L for Lignite and not S.