Some thoughts from the 4/1/06 FCT ride

[akdsmer]

NOTE! Please post with constructive critizim. If you think I was picking on anyone in general, please PM me and I'll apologize!

I realize I'm not a member, but as someone who participated in the run, I'd like to take a moment to comment on the run. I thank you for letting me come along and participate (which I did heavily!). It was a wonderful day and I enjoyed myself. Please don't think that I'm being too critical, it's just this would be a good time to think about our weakness as a club and strengthen them!

The beginning of the run started late while we were waiting on the trailboss, who couldn't make it. Not to bag on Stompr, who had vehicle issues, but heu should have called someone who was going. We were all waiting for you dude!

I was pleased to see that everyone who drove up to FCT was driving responsibly. I didn't see burnouts, unnecessary passing, speeding or other forms of reckless driving. I was proud to be in formation with you guys! TJ did a great job leading us out to the trail, even calling back on the radio to let us know of the ice at scuggie gulch (the twisties).

I led the group down the road to the trail head. I was told to lead, but I should have stopped at the trailhead and let TJ get up front. I didn't think about that till later. Sorry TJ! I'm following you next time!

At the trailhead, we got our first glimpse of who might have problems further on down the trail. It might be a good point next time to evaluate your rig based on what you are seeing going on ahead of you and from your immediate performance. That won't help if the trail becomes tougher later, but at the beginning "I" knew there were a few vehicles that weren't going to get very far. If I was trailboss (and member), I would have said something. That's not to look down on anyones rigs. All our rigs are in various stages of being "all set-up".

Putting the larger vehicles in front definetly made for a harder run for the people following, This will work better on drier runs, but in the snow, I think that we either need to different trail rides, or better yet, stick the big guys in the back. May not matter though, since we usually have to come back on the same trail! :eek:

Once the vehicles were starting to get stuck and develop problems, we seemed to have many people who would become spectators. I found myself pulling line, asking people for chain, hauling it up to my rig, burying my rig and pulling them out. My brother usually was the spotter for me. He also spent the whole day digging people out, as did I. We only had 4 shovels (maybe 5), but only had about 3 people using them at any time. With at least 12 people, we should have had 3 groups of people digging. I found myself walking up and down the hill all day long just to get people moving. No matter your sex, if your wheeling your rig on the trail.....you get to dig.

The trip was very kid friendly (except for the waiting!). I know I cussed a couple of times, but there were a few that were pretty vocal and didnt' really get the hint. When kids are present, if you can't keep from cussing, don't talk!

Ryan's overheating. What a cool opprotunity to get "creative" on the trail. I need to write up a tech thread on that one!

With Canchaser's schedule, we should have had her in the back, or at least 2nd to the rear. It would have been much easier to get her out in time like that. Speak up if you have scheduling concerns.

The winch weights weren't used all the time. I'm guilty of that twice. Safety has to come first. Those that were feeding the line would let their hands get way to close to the spool. Keep your hands back a couple of feet. I saw a few times people with fingers inches away from the spool and I would have to stop and get them to pull back. Don't put your fingers in the spool guard to get the line straightened out unless the remote is unplugged at least! I know that if I were to pinch your fingers, my luck is that I'd accidently spool in rather than spool out. Not a pleasant thought. A winch lead like Eric makes should be mandatory equipment for those operating a winch. Snatch blocks would have made it easier to pull vehicles back onto the trail or in the right direction. I don't know if the club has one, but if not, it should be a next purchase!

Around 11am, we realized that we were not going to get people any further. At that point, I stated that we should use the hill as winching practice, but instead it became just more of watch the toyota try to climb the hill without help. We missed a good chance for everyone to get time in on running the winches, connecting them properly and proper spotting techniques.

A few people got frustrated. This is a trailride! Sometimes we are not going to get very far. I for one thought it was a beautiful day to be outside.

With all the people present, we should not have left any equipment on the trail. I know that I am missing a strap. I realize I need to keep a better eye on my own equipment, but everyone who was standing around can also keep their eyes open for our trash and equipment. I don't like the idea of a strap still lying out there, it makes our club look bad.

I encourage anyone who wants to discuss this to post up and give your suggestions. If you are just mad at me for my opinion, please PM me. Save this thread for constructive uses if you could.

[AK20]

Very well written Kelly, not much if anyting to disagree with IMO. Myself, I dug, I pulled cable, and I pushed. But....I will admit I did my fair share of spectating as well, also please everyone re-check there gear to make sure everything you have is yours...

[michaeljr5]

I do agree with Kelly on his points. It was a blast though. I want to apologize if my temper flared at anyone. I was more frustrated with my self at the end there, not anything else. I was just upset that I couldn't get more than 2 feet before I got stuck again. I want to thank Mel for letting me use his Jeep as a winch point. :allrighty: Thanks to TJ for getting me outta there. :allrighty: Thanks for everyone's patience while we got the Monty outta the way.

As far as a snatch block, I'm saving my pennies, hope to have one soon. :allrighty: I definatley need lockers, front and rear and a lift. It was pointed out to me on serveral occassions that my truck sits too low. I definately know my limitations now! :allrighty: I will say watching the "Red Ford Monster" was the best part of the day! :allrighty: When he wound up that 429, I swear the heavens parted and the angels were singing to us!

Also, I completely cleaned out my truck. I didn't find any tow straps or other equipment that didn't belong to me.

[XFactor]

I double checked and have my gear, no extra :O( . I for one am quite sore (muscle wise that is). I thing that a shovel should be mandatory trail equipment. Had no one brought one we would still be out there. I am with Kelly it is a trail ride. Dont get peterbed if your rig isnt what you thought it was cracked up to be. That trail was tough. I had 9 inches of lift and still couldnt make it. We did get to use the winches alot. It would have been good to get people around to see how to do thing, but at the same point we really dont need 13 people looking around the same winch :O). I agree that no matter the sex, if your rig is stuck you should work on getting it unstuck. I took a few breaks, but mostly to catch my breath and not overheat. It was a beautiful day. Good to get out even if I put 7 miles on my rig and only drove 1. Good AAR (After Action Review). We should do this on each run.

[66fomoco]

Very well said, I had a great time and I guess being new to every one I wasn't paying attention to the order where the winches are and which rig was where.For myself it would have been much better to have the jeep and toyota behind me so I could have backed up and towed them, and if your getting stuck every 100 yards then we should maybe regroup and try the ones having a hard time going, in the back. I agree on haveing the heavy riggs in the back but it is nice to have one in the front also for an anchor or towing or hauling chains and such maybe something we can discuss and put some more thought into on the next run.

[holeski]

He’s right on everything. I wasn’t there and I knew it would be like this and that’s why I didn’t go. That trail has never, that I have seen been passable before Mothers Day. I have been running that trail for 7 years now. Do you want to live, be maimed or die maybe kill or hurt someone else. Straight up people die in this hobby all the time because they or some one else did something really stupid but easy to forget. Hand savers and winch weights should be mandatory for any one with or working with a winch. It’s a trail ride and no body should be standing around. Not everyone can make every run. If you don’t meet the requirements don’t whine about it, if you need to be somewhere later in the don’t go, your either going to be late, miss it all together or leave others out there by them selves. All but one large rig should be in the back most of the time. You need some one to break trail. I don’t know what to say I have heard some bad things about this run from a few people now and I’m disappointed.

[naturalbornmudder]

Hmmm.... I wasnt there so I cannot make rig or person specific constructive suggestions. But I will say that we do have a lot of new members and folks that are learning , as we all are.

I like the attention to detail that Kelly paid to what was going on, and I think this may be a good idea to continue to do this, as long as it stays on the friendly side.

One thing I will say is that it isn't if you get stuck, it's when you get stuck. Everyone does it at some time or another, so everyone should be willign to lend a hand because you will be on the receiving end of the help at one time or another.

I dont know how many of the original drivers that posted that they were going to make it actually did, but there were 13 rigs that were proposed, which I think is a bit too many...

[AK20]

I don’t know what to say I have heard some bad things about this run from a few people now and I’m disappointed.

Don't blow it out of proportion, especially not even being there. Fact is, nobody was put in a position to get hurt, no matter how the vehicles were stacked there were only two getting to the top of the hill on there own power...Kelly's Zuk, and the big @$$ Ford. If I had been at the back everyone else still would have came to the same problems they had after I went up, point blank. Was this the best time to run FCT, no probley not. Knowing what I know now would I do it again, yes..why, because I had nothing else better to do that Saturday. Beats web wheeling any day in my book, plus we did get some good recovery practice in.

[28this]

I wasn't there, but good points. I have to mention about one thing said though. Although she did not reiderate needing to be near the rear of the line up, Canchaser did post in the original upcoming trail ride post that she needed to be in the rear because of time and needing to get back for work. I remember reading it. I think a good idea would be to start setting up a line up by someone when a ride thread is started, then when at the meeting point the day of, if there needs to be any changes we can, but at the same time if people posted something like Jess did, it is already set that way in the line up and not forgotten by anyone.
Another point, I have read the bi'laws, but do not know when they were last updated. It would be a good idea to go over these things periodically at club meetings (like the equipment mandatory list) and add things that we know are used pretty much every time we trail ride.
I am not a club member yet, don't know when I will be, it will take me some time to get my outfit set up to a personal minimum before I will trailride it, but I would still be more than happy to print up or whatever things like a updated equipment list for the club.
As for large vehicles up front, NO, you don't need one to brake trail. Figure it this way, every trail should be rated for a minimum rig requirement (i.e. 1-5). Each level your rig needs to have certain tire size, equipment as in lockers etc. If your rig meets these minimum requirements, then it can role and should be able to make it across no matter what the trail is. If it is for snow cover then have a winter trail rating and a summer for each trail. Larger trucks make larger rutts, therefore should be in the rear. The rigs in front cut the trail, then the larger ones have a foundation so they don't have to tear up as much to get through. (Why have a rig cut two rutts for others to follow with say 49" tires? This would mean the rutts could end up around 2 ft deep. If someone behind them is running 31's, then there rutt is only like 15" deep. If he goes in the same rutt as 49" now he's high centered and stuck. See the point, bigger in the back). That sinario is hipothetical of both rigs having same ground clearance with exception to tire hieght.
Last, as for lounging while others are working, where's the trailboss? To me a trailboss isn't just the one leading the way down the trail. He or she needs to be able to keep everything organized and together. No one wants to get stuck, but it happens. The more people that help to get unstuck, the faster you get unstuck, the more trail everyone gets to cover.
I don't know all of this best axles and lockers and such, but I know how to wheel and it can be done without the extras. Its not just the biggest, badest rig. I alkways say 90+% of wheeling is the skill of the driver. You can have an ultimate rig, but it don't mean nothin if you don't have the sense and gained skill to operate. Sorry if it's long, but that's my :2cents: .

[akdsmer]

That trail has never, that I have seen been passable before Mothers Day. I have been running that trail for 7 years now.

You need to buy a zuki This was the third time I've driven it during the winter, twice with my last zuki. But I also knew from past experience that this was going to be a stuckfest. As I mentioned it would have been the very best opprotunity to teach winching and recovery techniques. As for a big rig to break the trail, my zuki did a great job of "not" breaking the trail! lol


I don't fault most of the members for showing up since the requirements were listed as "to avoid confusion on requirements, if you are interested post up on what you are planning on running and we can decide if its worthy to run". This was mostly a planning and execution problem, a problem that has been exposed and will surely be corrected in the future. AK20 posted up his 55 mile requirements and was strong enough to keep the less hardy vehicles excluded. Later when dry, that run could then easily be opened up for less equipped vehicles, with a couple of winches to get them over the rougher parts!

[66fomoco]

I agree on the 66 being in the rear on almost all trail rides unless there is deep water or bog hole, I wouldn't like to follow my tracks either and the sammie did a great job on the trail. Man I'm easy just want to have fun get every rig out and nobody hurt. Brad

[holeski]

When I say passable I mean the loop. I hate driving in and out at the same place. I have ran it all though the winter too, just not all the way back and around the loop.

[akdsmer]

I have to mention about one thing said though. Although she did not reiderate needing to be near the rear of the line up, Canchaser did post in the original upcoming trail ride post that she needed to be in the rear because of time and needing to get back for work. I remember reading it. I think a good idea would be to start setting up a line up by someone when a ride thread is started, then when at the meeting point the day of, if there needs to be any changes we can, but at the same time if people posted something like Jess did, it is already set that way in the line up and not forgotten by anyone.

That's why I said SHE should have spoken up (at the trailhead). I don't follow the threads THAT closely. TJ took over the trailboss responsibilities at the last moment and did fine, including helping most people back out. It was partially my fault for not letting him get to the front and lead the charge :oops: .

I don't know all of this best axles and lockers and such, but I know how to wheel and it can be done without the extras. Its not just the biggest, badest rig. I alkways say 90+% of wheeling is the skill of the driver. You can have an ultimate rig, but it don't mean nothin if you don't have the sense and gained skill to operate. Sorry if it's long, but that's my :2cents: .

Usually finess is the most important, but this run was about the right vehicle and the right set-up. Grainy snow=no traction. No wheeling experience was getting you up a snowmachine hill. It was psi on the hardpack and traction to get you up the hill (plus the winch).

[akdsmer]

When I say passable I mean the loop. I hate driving in and out at the same place. I have ran it all though the winter too, just not all the way back and around the loop.

Agreed.

[akram]

Well I had fun. Even though I shoveled more snow in one day than I did all winter. I tried to help out as much as possible, I know I slacked everynow and then but I was getting tired. I did notice some people not putting in their share of the wrokload. Big rigs in back I agree on. I think I would have made it but oh well. Can only speculate at this point.

Also I think after a few of times of trying to get up the hill the maybe it should be called. I know people want to prove their rig and their capabilities but hey after 20-30 min give it up. Sorry if that hurts anybody. I got stuck mostly getting others unstuck.

I made it clear when I was backing up I needed a spotter due to m little mirrors. And I got them. That was great knowing I could count on people to help me. Kelly I don't have your strap or dring.
I doubled, tripled checked.

but there were 13 rigs that were proposed, which I think is a bit too many...

Do we need to set a limit on the amout of vehicles going on rides? Or maybe say ok if this many we do two groups like we did at 55mi? Personally I would hate to tell someone you can't come because there are too many people. I know there are many reasons for this, and I do agree to a point. Maybe the trailboss can make the decision when we line up, Say "OK guys we have a lot of rigs so we are going to split up". then he can separate the rigs accordingly.

Just thoughts coming from my sleep deprived head.

[AK20]

Also I think after a few of times of trying to get up the hill the maybe it should be called. I know people want to prove their rig and their capabilities but hey after 20-30 min give it up. Sorry if that hurts anybody. I got stuck mostly getting others unstuck.

I totaly agree Mel, I gave the hill 3 tries and wasn't to proud to take a winch line from the ZUK:allrighty:

[28this]

Do we need to set a limit on the amout of vehicles going on rides? Or maybe say ok if this many we do two groups like we did at 55mi? Personally I would hate to tell someone you can't come because there are too many people. I know there are many reasons for this, and I do agree to a point. Maybe the trailboss can make the decision when we line up, Say "OK guys we have a lot of rigs so we are going to split up". then he can separate the rigs accordingly.

Just thoughts coming from my sleep deprived head.

Don't think there should ever be a set number of rigs that can go. If there equiped right, let them ride. Thats almost like saying (We already have 50 people in the club which is too many so you can't join).

Agree though, should set a limit of rigs for grouping when in large numbers like 5-7 per group. This wouldn't mean that one group couldn't help another if they needed it to get rolling again either. Good Point Mel.

[madmax]

In some cases it's nessary to limit it to smaller groups or stagger groups,like 55 mile if you get to many people bottlenecked on the hill and someone losses it and slides backwards there could be a lot of hurting,or even doing a trail thats real sloppy the more people going in makes it harder to get some of the rigs back out,if there is a trail that has a limit of rigs to go on maybe someone else could trailboss a secound ride on a seperate trail so everyone gets out and has some fun.

[jeepin_al]

I want to be constructive but I keep running into a wall so I am just going to speak my peace. Please understand this isn't directed at anyone or meant personally. Basically, it is what it is. I am very glad no one here was with my on my first run. I must have been stuck 15 times in a single day. I hit everything with a gusto that most won't ever manage. I even have pictures to prove it. I had fun and those with me had fun laughing at me and helping me out of the predicament I put myself in. Sounds like I would have been told I couldn't run anymore with this group. Who needs more rules, Arctic Offroad already has too many. Off roading isn't about rules, it is about getting away from rules.

[AK20]

Sounds like I would have been told I couldn't run anymore with this group. Who needs more rules, Arctic Offroad already has too many. Off roading isn't about rules, it is about getting away from rules.

I agree with you to a point Al, but somewhere along the way you have to know were the line needs to be drawn and just except the fact your not going to make it. This is basically for the good of the group, nobody wants to stand around all day watching someone attempt something they have no buisness trying. Keep the group moving, that's what it's all about. Now don't get me wrong, if your out with a few buddies and you want to keep poking at that impossible mud hole or hill climb, by all means I'm right there with you...but when you got 12 rigs and you have only made a 1/3rd or a mile in 4 hours, it's time to get moving, one way or another.

[canchaser]

sorry I didnt speak up I said it to stompr and he pm'd me on several occasions to see if they would end up letting me off from work so I'd have no constraints...... everything was kida tossed to the wind when he couldnt make it. going to bring a shovel next time of course. I didnt shovel mainly because I was worried I'd get in the way, I'm much smaller and slower than most of the guys that are twice my size. next time I'll get in the mix more but feel free to let me know, and to hand me a shovel I was worried with being the only girl that I'd be stepping on toes if I wanted to dig. (I didnt know this is the first real run we've been on cause Manchu (winter solstice wasnt this crowded)). sorry. thats all I have to say.

[66fomoco]

I don't want to sound like a butt head but I drive a 2005 Ranger back and forth to work it has 31's ciped tight posi in the rear 4.10 gears but it is not something to take on a trail ride with three foot mud holes or 4' feet of snow even with a winch if it had 33's and lockers it would drastically improve it. There will be some other trail rides where every one can go but those are the rules for this 55 mile run and I support AK20 no one wants to be the wrecker all day and most drivers don't want to be stuck in every hole.If you want to try it go another day and see yourself what the trail is like.Brad

[madmax]

Canchaser if you want to shovel next time slam someone in the head and take there spot(can try out first aid kits)lol .

[ladydurango]

Canchaser if you want to shovel next time slam someone in the head and take there spot(can try out first aid kits)lol .

:laugh:

[madmax]

Brad there not doing the sloppy trail we took that goes to the river there shooting straight over the hill.

[66fomoco]

My bag I thought we were taking the boggy trail. I'll clamp my beak.