Arctic Offroad Forums

pics will come later. but for reference :


I have a Don Thuren leveling spring set under my dodge. about 3 inches of lift. I saw on his website he is offering 2 inch leveling springs now :wall: when I put the DT springs on the drive line angle was actually pretty decent, but it swung my axle backwards .. which resulted in about 3 degrees positive caster as the alignment showed last winter on the paper work. The truck drove pretty good but I did notice some issues with the truck wandering a little bit. not bad though.

I was going to swap the stock springs back in at this point, but then my parents house burned and the springs went with it. I pulled them out of the rubble and they were warped and bent to hell. So I have been driving around and around.. normal daily stuff. and a sway bar link broke and the other one bent pretty bad. So for about 3-4 months I was driving and it really wandered about worse with every day i drove it. I drove this way for about 4 months and i decided to finally do something about it.


TODAY:
now fast forward to today. The drag link was worn out, I replaced it. the sway bar links- replaced with moog sway links. Don Thuren makes an offset set of sway links, I will be looking at getting them in the future if these break on me again. They should last a while though and get me through for now. I have had them for a while .. just got around to installing them with the 3-5 inch range skyjacker arms I just got.
I installed the skyjacker arms and it turns out the skyjacker uppers are a little shorter than the stock ones. The skyjacker lowers are a little longer than the stock arms. but that made for a not so desirable driveline angle at the AXLE PINION. I installed the MOOG joints finally. I also replaced the drag link setup with MOPAR parts.

The DRIVE HOME:
I drove home and the truck tracked true and straight, no wandering. However. the driveline angle is not too great and I noticed a pretty bad vibration (pinion bearing suspected) when I engaged in 4wd. I also saw a little oil for the first time seep out at the pinion.
**Before I put the skyjacker control arms on, there was a hum I could here when in 4wd , now it has turned into a vibration with the pinion angle more postive.

Thoughts (post yours up too for discussion):
I think the pinion has too much positive caster. to be honest, it visually looked to be too POSITIVE, (leaning back too much). I need to get the truck to an alignment shop and get a reading on it and see if they can adjust the lower caster nut to get a better caster setting. If adjusting it is not enough, I may inquire about reinstalling the uppers or somehow pursway the alignment shop to let me cut, sleeve and weld the skyjacker uppers to a desirable length while on the alignment rack.

I have a feeling if I reinstall the stock uppers it may give me the necessary distance needed to correct the pinion angle. Oh, the front driveline is solid. no wobbles.

The pinion bearing is possibly out too. that project has been on the back burner for a while :eek:

My thoughts are find a set of used stock springs for cheap. Return it all to stock and sell all the other parts. I still don't understand why you changed it all in the first place. I've left mine stock for a reason. It's not an offroader it is a tow rig/daily driver. Start messing around with them much and you will find yourself getting into issues like this and worse. If you lift the vehicle other things need to change. I'd bet your sway bar links broke due to the lift and too much stress on them. They should last a lifetime. I've never had sway bar links break on a vehicle before. The wandering is most likely coming from the worn joints and trac bar. Mine wanders a little due to worn steering joints. There are time when modifying a vehicle isn't worth it. This seems like one of those times to me.

I very seriously doubt any shop is going to let you do that work while on their machine. If I was a shop owner I wouldn't let a customer do it. The liability is way too high.

I posting up because I am looking for possible solutions/ideas, and to document what I have done and the problems I have come across for the next guy thinking they want to jack up their tow rig in the front because they didnt like the rake. I am a stubborn person and will seek out solutions to the problem before I give up. If I could start again I would not do this. but being me, I have to finish something i start.

there is a little bit of play in the steering wheel, but the truck drives very straight and stays straight. I am happy with that. the bumps or rutted areas in the road definitely do not force it to jump around like it did before.
But for now I am concerned about the vibrations when engaged in 4wd; the only time it vibrates.

It could be a driveline issue, but I had it balanced and new joints put in it only a year ago. but then again the axle got pushed forward 1/2 an inch with the new lower control arm. which may have something to do with the new vibrations.
It could be the pinion bearing (which I know is going bad already) vibrating even more since the pinion angle is more positive now.

I didnt measure or get any readings, but I am guessing from the looks of the position of the upper ball joint and lower balljoint, the caster angle is too positive. I am thinking I will have an alignment shop adjust the lower arm's caster bolt/nut as negative as they can and give me a reading on the caster. They might be able to help my figure out how much longer I need to make the upper too. Or if I can get away with it. . I may be able to put the stock upper control arms back in (as they are 1/2" longer than the skyjacker arms) which may bring the caster closer to where the pinion angle is not too bad.

Heavy duty trucks sit higher in the bed so that they sit level when hauling a load or towing. If you plan on using this as your tow rig, I would seriously consider returning it to stock. If you're towing a heavy trailer with a lot of tongue weight, you're going to swat the rear and possible have undesirable handling issues especially on our frost heaved road.

I know the F-250 and F-350 trucks have the same rear spring rate, but the F-350 trucks have an 1-1/2" spacer to compensate for heavy loads. I'm not sure if Dodges are set up the same, but if you're just looking to level the truck maybe remove the rear spring spacer instead. If you're looking to level the truck and accommodate larger tires then you are using the leveling kit more as a lift kit.

Could the pinion problems be from taking it in the mud/water rather than pinion angle?

the pinion angle did not change significantly when I first put on the leveling kit. the caster was at 6 degrees.
I am not worried about the rear dropping with a heavy load as I have the rear axle bagged. I can haul 400-500 gallons of water and the truck wont even squat. the rear of the newer 03 and up dodges have some spacers in the rear. if I come acroos some stock springs for free, I will consider returning it to stock height.

Still don't agree with modification for the reasons that CA and Mel specified.

Agree with them that buying a used set of springs from anywhere is your best bet.

It's amazing how much research engineers did to try to create a decent product. While some improvements could've been made, other items were pretty decent to start with.


CA, when I worked at Ford there were 8 options for rear springs and 12 options for front springs between the F-250/F-350 trucks. We had to swap coils all the time thanks to TSB's which called for changes to fix guess what....caster angle. As long as the truck wasn't over 36K miles it was covered. (for certain vehicles anyway) I changed several sets...

thinking about just cutting the coils shorter too. thoughts on that?
here is what they look like (middle spring)

Oh no. Keep in mind these are specifically engineered a certain way. You go cutting coils the issues you have now while seem like nothing.

yeah it was a thought I had earlier today. after reading and a couple emails later it was a no go idea.

Why does lifting dodge trucks jack up the pinion angle so much??? My old ford lifted fine and it was a standard cab, shortbed.

I've never seen one lifted with this much issue. Chris lifted his without this much issue. That pinion angle is horrible. I'd say those arms aren't right. Longer lower arms and shorter upper arms are definitely gonna screw it up.

a couple weeks ago I was able to get my dodge into my girlfriend's father's shop and got the front control arms cut, lengthened and sleeved.

I took it to the alignment shop today to get some numbers on it and $100 later I was within specifications. turns out I didnt really need an alignment except for the tow needed to be reset.

BEFORE the alignment:
Caster left: 4.5*
Caster right: 4.5*

camber left: -0.4*
camber right: -0.5*

toe left: -0.25*
toe right: 0.35*
TOTAL: 0.10*
______________________________
AFTER the alignment:
Caster left: 4.5*
Caster right: 4.6*

camber left: -0.5*
camber right: -0.5*

toe left: 0.05*
toe right: 0.05*
TOTAL: 0.10*



It drives pretty straight no wandering. just a little slop in the steering wheel. possibly a pump or steering gear box wear and tear issue. Ill look into it when it gets worse. I will post up some measurements tomorrow when I remember to take them. :rockon:

I think the next thing is to get some different sway bar links. or fabricate a new sway bar mount or modify the sway bar in some way. The links are at an angle and rubbing on the coils at times. there are some issues still but I am getting closer to resolving them all.

Every time you change something you are going to effect other things, It's the nature of the beast.

re-engineering as I go!
the end is in sight

Jack it up, cut it up, make it yours.....my two cents. Have fun with it till you get old and boring like the rest of us, you can run a stock rig then.

eventually when I am old and boring Ill throw dueces and AGS under it. (55 and retired.. hahahaha).
talked it over with Gus from 2broke2play (yellowk20) and i will just extend and reinforce the sway links before I go ahead and throw $200 at the don thuren links.
its been a couple weeks and it is driving great so far. There are a few things to change still (sway links), and it should drive even better then

boshos Wrote:Jack it up, cut it up, make it yours.....my two cents. Have fun with it till you get old and boring like the rest of us, you can run a stock rig then.

Do you wheel?
Petey has to get something reliable rolling....after all he has yet another project!

I have a rolling daily driver that tows.. just needs a little bit of work, and I have a wheeler. I will never put myself in a non wheeler ready type of situation (unless I really break something on the trail!

...... and that other project is a wheeler already !